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redrikkiForce visions and prophetic dreams to be part of the skillset of even untrained Force sensitives. In the prequels, Anakin dreams about becoming a Jedi (TPM), his mother's death (AotC), and Padme's death (RotS). In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke has a vision about his friends being in trouble. In The Clone Wars episode "Assassin," Ahsoka has a dream and series of visions about an attempt on Padme's life. In Star Wars: Rebels, Ezra has a vision of Gall Trayvis and later a dream about his parents. In The Force Awakens, we learn that Rey has been dreaming of Luke's island long before she ever set foot there. So here's my question: if Force visions and prophetic dreams are a known ability, why did Anakin receive such consistently bad advice on dealing with his?
During Attack of the Clones, we learn that Anakin has been having dreams about his mother in peril for long enough that it is negatively effecting his sleep. Obi-Wan dismisses the possibility that Shmi is actually in danger and assures Anakin that dreams pass in time. The Force is basically screaming at Anakin, but Obi-Wan essentially urges him to put his fingers in his ears and hum until it stops. In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin goes to Yoda after a dream about his wife's impending death. Yoda responds saying:
Contrasted to that is what Yoda says when Ahsoka comes to him with vague visions of someone close to her being attacked by Aurra Sing in "Assassin":
Not only does he basically congratulate her on unlocking a new Force power, he offers her soul, practical advice on how to proceed. She comes back to him again after meditating, and he encourages her to actively try to prevent Senator Amidala's death.
When Ezra first has a vision in Rebels, Kanan confesses he doesn't know much about them, but stresses that the future is always in motion and it's best not to take them at face value. He urges caution before acting. Later, when Ezra has a dream about his parents, he helps him track down additional information and accompanies him on his mission to find out what happened.
What accounts for the way Anakin's visions are handled, as opposed to Ezra's and Ahsoka's? Some of it might come down to teaching style. In Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan expresses concern that Anakin's skills in the Force have made him arrogant. He repeatedly tries to put the boy back in his place. He questions whether Anakin has the skill to sense any danger going on in Padme's bedroom (he does!) and makes sarcastic remarks about his skills with a lightsaber. While Kanan is willing to admit that Ezra may have Force skills he lacks and working through learning about them together, Obi-Wan is more concerned with making sure his student doesn't get a swell head then helping him get stronger. There's also the attachment issue. Obi-Wan is troubled by Anakin's continued attachment to his mother and may very well think that her death might help his student let go (especially since the Council would never give them leave to help her), while Kanan accepts Ezra's attachment to his parents and understands it's actually a good thing.
And then there's Yoda. According to the DVD commentary on the Clone Wars episode, Dave Filoni specifically wrote the scene with Ahsoka to redeem Yoda for the genuinely terrible advice he gave Anakin in the films. To me, it has the opposite effect. He was capable of giving sound advice, but chose not to in favor of scolding him for caring if someone lived or died. Why? Did he assume the person in peril was another nobody like Anakin's mom and not want him to waste valuable Jedi time trying to save them? Did he think Anakin was talking about Palpatine, who the Jedi were plotting against, and not want him to get involved? Did he just not particularly care for Anakin and wanted to shame him for his attachments as he had done repeatedly throughout the prequels and Clone Wars? I have no idea.
Why do you think Yoda gave Anakin and Ahsoka such different advice? Do you think Obi-Wan suspected that Anakin's dreams were real Force visions? Have you ever had a prophetic dream?
During Attack of the Clones, we learn that Anakin has been having dreams about his mother in peril for long enough that it is negatively effecting his sleep. Obi-Wan dismisses the possibility that Shmi is actually in danger and assures Anakin that dreams pass in time. The Force is basically screaming at Anakin, but Obi-Wan essentially urges him to put his fingers in his ears and hum until it stops. In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin goes to Yoda after a dream about his wife's impending death. Yoda responds saying:
"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them not. Miss them not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is. Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."
Contrasted to that is what Yoda says when Ahsoka comes to him with vague visions of someone close to her being attacked by Aurra Sing in "Assassin":
"So, you begin to see clearly, the true power of the Force. Visions, they are. Underestimate them, you must not. Meditate, to see clearly. More experience, you need."
Not only does he basically congratulate her on unlocking a new Force power, he offers her soul, practical advice on how to proceed. She comes back to him again after meditating, and he encourages her to actively try to prevent Senator Amidala's death.
When Ezra first has a vision in Rebels, Kanan confesses he doesn't know much about them, but stresses that the future is always in motion and it's best not to take them at face value. He urges caution before acting. Later, when Ezra has a dream about his parents, he helps him track down additional information and accompanies him on his mission to find out what happened.
What accounts for the way Anakin's visions are handled, as opposed to Ezra's and Ahsoka's? Some of it might come down to teaching style. In Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan expresses concern that Anakin's skills in the Force have made him arrogant. He repeatedly tries to put the boy back in his place. He questions whether Anakin has the skill to sense any danger going on in Padme's bedroom (he does!) and makes sarcastic remarks about his skills with a lightsaber. While Kanan is willing to admit that Ezra may have Force skills he lacks and working through learning about them together, Obi-Wan is more concerned with making sure his student doesn't get a swell head then helping him get stronger. There's also the attachment issue. Obi-Wan is troubled by Anakin's continued attachment to his mother and may very well think that her death might help his student let go (especially since the Council would never give them leave to help her), while Kanan accepts Ezra's attachment to his parents and understands it's actually a good thing.
And then there's Yoda. According to the DVD commentary on the Clone Wars episode, Dave Filoni specifically wrote the scene with Ahsoka to redeem Yoda for the genuinely terrible advice he gave Anakin in the films. To me, it has the opposite effect. He was capable of giving sound advice, but chose not to in favor of scolding him for caring if someone lived or died. Why? Did he assume the person in peril was another nobody like Anakin's mom and not want him to waste valuable Jedi time trying to save them? Did he think Anakin was talking about Palpatine, who the Jedi were plotting against, and not want him to get involved? Did he just not particularly care for Anakin and wanted to shame him for his attachments as he had done repeatedly throughout the prequels and Clone Wars? I have no idea.
Why do you think Yoda gave Anakin and Ahsoka such different advice? Do you think Obi-Wan suspected that Anakin's dreams were real Force visions? Have you ever had a prophetic dream?
Prophetic dreams
Date: 2019-01-06 10:49 pm (UTC)So, I think that all of the options you've offered are possible. I'd put forward one more for Obi-Wan, even though it is somewhat innocent and trivial.
It goes like this: Anakin, being a homesick small boy, had been having dreams about his mother needing him/calling him in the first years after his induction into the Order. As the repicient, Anakin's aware these nightmares are different, while Obi-wan, who's unable to compare them, believes that Anakin is having a late relapse. He thought that Anakin had overcome this problem years ago, but apparently not, and he's sort of both sad for Anakin and sad for himself that he should deal with this half-forgoten old issue again. LOL
I really don't know about Yoda, though. I mean, Filoni himself is open about the fact that he made Yoda act out of character, so it's hard to reconcile with the rest and it really makes Yoda look like a dick. I tend to put this one on the author, not on the character, though. I choose to believe that Yoda really trusts in his no-attachment philosophy (although even he sometimes fails at it) and that's it. Not fun, I know.
As for the last question, I've had any, but I feel deja vu way too often for my liking. It's always weird when it happens, but I really don't believe that *I've lived this moment before* or whatever. Our brains are fully capable of fooling us by embellishing or plain creating fake memories, so why not fake memories of what happened in our head when we were sleeping.
Re: Prophetic dreams
Date: 2019-01-07 01:48 am (UTC)I too have had a weird amount of deja vu. Maybe we have the Force.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-07 06:36 am (UTC)I've got a really early morning tomorrow, so probably won't get all my thoughts down here, but love to continue chatting about this. First, do you mind if I ask which version of the dvds you have with that commentary by Filoni on them? Where Filoni said that he wrote the scene with Ahsoka specifically to redeem Yoda because he gave genuinely terrible advice to Anakin? I'd love to listen to that as a source as well, but the dvds I own don't seem to have any director's commentary on that episode available, and I searched online but wasn't able to find anything like that.
Also, quick question on the main body of text you wrote, I just rewatched that episode recently and I don't recall that Yoda "encourages [Ahsoka] to actively try to prevent Senator Amidala's death" after being visited the second time with more info about her visions. It seems like it would be pretty out of character for him, since he knows the danger of telling someone to run straight down one specific possible path of the future out of fear for the unwanted outcome, without being mindful to actually choose one's path carefully. What line of dialogue were you thinking of when you wrote that he told her to go out and actively prevent Senator Amidala's death?
To talk a little about why Yoda gave Anakin and Ahsoka such different advice (and I think this is a bit under debate in the first place, honestly, to me the advice they received wasn't all THAT different once you break it down to component parts) I think some of it just goes back to author's intent in the writers. In RotS Lucas had relatively little time to get his story across, and this is one of the opportunities he took to hit that beat again, that theme, for Yoda to be the voice making the point to both Anakin and the audience that the path he was going down was dangerous, that if he continued to focus entirely on his fear of loss to the exclusion of everything else, if he continued to insist he would DO ANYTHING, no limits, to prevent himself from having to feel that pain of loss, it would only end in darkness.
Zooming in-universe and away from the thematic/story beats Lucas was trying to hit and bring home to the audience with that scene, I think there's a couple major differences to take into account. When I watch those scenes it seems to me that Yoda was tailoring his responses at least a little bit to their different strengths and weaknesses and their different levels as students. Ahsoka is a 15ish year old, very junior padawan at this point, while Anakin is a 23 year old, fully fledged Jedi Knight. Yoda breaks his advice to her down into more bite-sized pieces because she is a still a very junior Jedi and needs that level of guidance. Anakin is far, far more advanced, and should have absolutely no need for Yoda to tell him something as basic as: "Meditate to see clearly; more experience you need.” Anakin already knows all that, it would be condescending for Yoda to try to give Anakin practical advice of that level, and that's not what Anakin's there for, besides. Ahsoka needs to be reminded of restraint, that she should hold off, meditate, carefully consider all of the angles and possibilities before acting, since she is particularly prone to the weakness of running off ahead without thinking things through; so that's what Yoda tells her. Anakin, on the other hand, is prone to holding on to things and people unhealthily hard, in a way that he knows is not in keeping with the Jedi teaching, so when it starts to seem like he is going in that direction, that is what Yoda cautions Anakin about; that he needs to learn to LET GO, to not let his fear of loss rule and control him into making dark decisions...which was actually pretty on point, but turned out to be advice Anakin refused to heed...ending up with him helping to self-fulfill his own visions by strangling Padme himself.
Another factor that I don't think gets enough attention is the very, very different attitudes Ahsoka and Anakin went to Yoda with. Ahsoka was open, she was listening, she was there to genuinely learn and listen to the advice she came to Yoda for. When he prompts her for more, she opens up fully about her concerns and thoughts. She went away and thought about what he'd said and came back for more clarification later. All of this actually enables him to help her and helps her to thoughtfully take on what he said. Anakin in contrast is too concerned about keeping his secret to actually give Yoda enough context to even begin to give him practical advice on the matter, even if he wanted to. When Yoda prompts for more information, Anakin is closed off and mono-syllabic in his answers. I understand why he was, but that kind of attitude would obviously cripple anyone's ability to give good advice, even Yoda.
I think Yoda is trying to coach Anakin into looking at the hard, selfless changes in himself he needed to make in that moment, but all Anakin wanted to hear was a step-by-step process on how to find the magic bullet that would definitely, absolutely, 100% save Padme's life. That was the only answer that would possibly have satisfied him, and of course Yoda wasn't going to be able to give him that. At the end of the day death is natural and unstoppable, if not at this moment for Padme then certainly at another, and the only thing we can really control is how we respond to it. Which is in stark contrast to what Palpatine told Anakin, offering him the easy road, giving him exactly what he WANTED to hear (There is no reason to fear death, because we can stop it. We can control all of these external things without needing to master ourselves at all!), but not what he NEEDED to hear.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-08 12:25 am (UTC)You made a really good point about Yoda giving Anakin and Ahsoka different advise due to their different ages and statuses. I also think their personal relationships play a roll. Yoda and Ahsoka trust each other. She trusts him to give her good advice. He gives her leave to do what she thinks best because he trusts her to do something he'd approve of.
Anakin and Yoda don't trust each other. Anakin doesn't trust Yoda with his secrets and Yoda doesn't trust Anakin's judgement. I get why George needed to include the scene in order to stress the theme of Anakin's failure to accept his own powerlessness in the face of death, but I wonder what Anakin hope to get out of it. Why would he share his vision if he wasn't going to discuss details? Was he looking for sympathy? Practical advice? I know I'd be pretty put out if my spiritual advisor scolded me for caring about my loved ones and told me to rejoice in their inevitable death, but that's neither here nor there.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-09 06:54 am (UTC)As far as my personal opinion on what Anakin wanted to get out of it, the only thing I've ever been able to figure out watching that scene is he wanted to get what I alluded to in my other comment, he legit was looking for Yoda to provide him a glimmer of hope that the Jedi were just holding out on him, that they really did have a way to surefire cheat/control death and/or a surefire way to prevent unwanted visions of the future from coming to pass, and Anakin just hadn't been let in on the secret yet. I definitely don't think Anakin was going to Yoda for sympathy, it seems like kind of a weird direction for him to turn without any indication their relationship was particularly close in that way prior to that, and I'm not really sure why he'd choose Yoda, Grandmaster of the Jedi Order, of all people to go to for practical advice; Yoda has a completely different physiology, so it's not like he's the best one to give Anakin practical advice about human health issues. I really do think he was hoping against hope that if Anakin could just ask in the right way, he could unlock the secret to cheat death that the wisest of the Jedi masters might, just maybe, hold. When Yoda doesn't, and can't, give him that, Anakin isn't interested in listening to anything else.
And while I totally get why Yoda saying that during that scene rubs a lot of people the wrong way, I think at least in part, that reaction is caused by basically what you said there, that that is how YOU would react to your spiritual advisor saying that, which is a totally valid reaction for just about everyone out there living in reality. I really really really doubt I'd be ready to hear that myself if someone I went to with a similar concern said that to me. But to me, it doesn't seem particularly out there for the topmost Jedi spiritual advisor to say that to a JEDI KNIGHT who came to him for advice....like, this is a basic cornerstone of the Jedi way of life and philosophy. Yoda isn't being unreasonable or cruel; he's not even saying anything unexpected to Anakin by reminding him of this outlook. As much as a lot of people identify with Anakin in the movies (he's the most relatable character to a lot of folks), as far as I see it, his magical Force powers, the very real dangers of the Dark Side that exist in that universe, and his chosen vocation as a Jedi places that conversation in a vastly different context than it would be if someone said something like that out of the blue to me or you.