redrikki | Star Wars Meta: Jedi Cult?

I like to joke about how the Jedi are actually just a messed up space cult, but let’s take a look at that claim, shall we? The International Cult Studies Association defines a cult as “an ideological organization held together by charismatic relations and demanding total commitment.” Sounds like the Jedi to me. Cults can vary widely in terms of the degree of control they exert over their members. The greater the degree of internal control, the higher the risk of physical or psychological harm to members. The Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame is a handy 18-factor frame work for identifying just how controlling, and thus how potentially dangerous, any cult-like group is. Each factor is evaluated on a sliding scale with 1 as low and 10 as high. Groups which score highly in five or more factors can be classified as potentially dangerous cults.

1. Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

The Jedi score a solid 9 on this one. The Council has unilateral control over advancement, mission assignments, and punishments. The Order also maintains their own secret prison to contain those members they feel have gone bad. Members have no clear way of raising concerns and no clearly defined rights.

2. External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on directing members’ external political and social behavior.

Jedi score somewhere between 7 and 9 on this. Members are forbidden from forming outside attachments or contacting their families, and they are not allowed to participate in the political processes of their home worlds.

While the Jedi Order claims to eschew political involvement, they maintain a pod in the Senate and meet regularly with the Chancellor in an advisory capacity. When Chancellor Palpatine asks to spend time alone with a young Anakin in the new Obi-Wan & Anakin comic, the Council agrees in order to maintain their friendly relationship and repeatedly attempt to use the friendship between Anakin and Palpatine to influence and spy on the Chancellor. They technically serve the Senate, but regularly conceal information about secret deployments, intelligence about the Sith, etc. When the Chancellor attempts to exert more control over the Council by appointing Anakin Skywalker, the Council beings to plot a coup against him even before they learn he is a Sith.

3. Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

Solid 9. Yoda is the oldest and wisest among us. We must trust in the Council.

4. Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

Solid 9. See above.

5. Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.

Somewhere between 6 and 8. We hear individual Jedi privately express views other than those approved by the Council, but we also hear other Jedi expressing shock and horror at those ideas. Jedi like Qui-Got who persist in doing their own thing have trouble advancing within the Jedi hierarchy, or may even lose status. The Jedi ideals of maintaining internal peace and harmony help to squash dissent and doctrinal disputes mostly be pretending they don’t really exist.

6. Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all members to bring in new ones.

8 and 9. Jedi recruit children under the age of five. They have an in-universe reputation as kidnappers and were actually forbidden from visiting the planet of Bardotta thanks to their aggressive recruiting. On at least two separate instances they recruited children via ‘rescue’ without informing the children’s parents. See the Baby Ludi drama for details.

7. Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially when connections are hidden.

1. They don’t have any…that we know of. Just kidding. No front groups.

8. Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.

I’d put them around 5. Individual members don’t get paid and aren’t supposed to accumulate possessions or wealth, and that includes the leaders. That said, Council members have much larger apartments than the rank and file. The Jedi Order as a whole maintains several large and fancy temples throughout the galaxy including one massive and swanky one on Courscant.

9. Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.

Idk 3-5? Jedi aren’t permitted to marry or ‘form attachments’ except in those weird old EU cases where certain (Council) members received special permission because their species was endangered or some shit. Casual sex is cool though, I guess.

10. Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.

1. The Jedi don’t do this shit and that’s probably a good thing. The idea of people having to put out for Yoda kind of makes me sick.

11. Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

6-8. Younger members are literally not permitted to leave the temple or contact anyone outside, including their own families. Teenage members are only permitted to do so under the supervision of the Council or their masters. All education is handled in-house. According to the new Darth Vader comic, there was also a good bit of internal censorship where only certain members were permitted access to certain types of information about the Force and the Order.

12 Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.

10. Jedi are removed from their families before their fifth birthday and forbidden to communicate with them ever again. In some cases, they are given new names to further distance them from their birth families. They are not permitted to marry. Having outside friends is treated as suspect.

13. Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

9-10. Prior to the Clone Wars, only 20 masters ever left. The Order maintained a secret prison for those Jedi they felt had lost their way. No word on what exactly ‘losing their way’ meant.

14. Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

8-10. All members were combat trained since pretty much minute one and were regularly deployed on missions which involved combat. They were technically serving the Republic, but most of their missions were dictated by the Council rather than directly by the Senate or other civilian body. Very little violence was directed at Order members by their superiors. That said, young members were often placed in life threatening situations as tests. See the ice caves of Illum or the temple on Lothal for details.

15. Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.

6-8. The PT-era Jedi never shut up about the Dark Side and are constantly on alert for it within their own members. During the Clone Wars, they become increasingly (and justifiably) worried about the Separatists and the Sith. While deeply afraid of the power of the Dark Side, they tend to underestimate the skills and intelligence of actual Dark Side users.

16. Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

2-4. While there are a few very serious Jedi, most fall somewhere between whimsical and sassmasters.

17. Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

8-10. Surrender to the will of the Force. Trust in the Council. Trust your Master. Seriously, watch the Clone Wars. The sheer number of times Anakin and/or Ahsoka is told to turn off their brain and do as instructed is mind boggling. Also, Jedi as a whole practice literal mind control.

18. Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.

7-9. See the entirety of the Clone Wars for details, but some examples include: maintaining a slave army despite believing slavery is a tool of the Sith; making deals with known slavers despite believing slavery is a tool of the Sith; handing over the Zillo beast to be experimented upon and killed despite believing in the sanctity of all life.

The International Cult Studies Association lists some additional risk factors including: excessive use of mind altering practices such as meditation; elitism; us-vs-them mentality towards external enemies; and attempts by the leadership to induce feelings of guilt or shame in members. Jedi exhibit all of these traits to varying degrees.

In short, the Jedi are a cult, and a potentially harmful one at that. Agree? Disagree? Want to clarify or refute any of my points? Is it just me, or are there a bunch of cults in the Star Wars universe?

Current Mood: accomplished

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

colls

This was a great read! I don't disagree with any of your points and can very much see that the Jedi Order falls under the category of 'Cult'.

In general, it's rather frightening how thin the line is between religious organization and cult, isn't it?

From:

redrikki

Yeah, it is but, to be fair, there are non-religious cults. I mean, some political movements, especially in totalitarian societies, can also be classified as cults. I guess it's just easier to convince people to surrender their will to you when you first convince them that you have some sort of divine authority.

From:

colls

Yes, they can. A recent example of non-religious cult-like behavior (fictionally speaking) is the Netflix series Travelers where there was this sort of devotion to "The Director" - who was an AI in a sort of role-reversal from the SkyNet from Terminator.
Which is a completely random tangent and has nothing to do with the Jedi. /whoops.

The recruitment methods of the Jedi really bother me. Targeting children in the justification that a) they need to begin training while young and b) some idea that they're saving these kids from the Sith. The lack of contact with their families is chilling and very telling.
I'm always surprised that Ahsoka is allowed to decline the offer to rejoin the Order at the end of The Clone Wars and simply allowed to leave. Although I suppose the end upheaval is imminent so maybe it makes sense.

From:

redrikki

Man, I love Travelers. That was such a fun show.

On the Jedi recruitment angle, it's clear from looking at older, untrained Force sensitives like Luke, Ezra, and Rey that beginning training at a very young age is not necessary to master the Force. Also, up until TPM, the Jedi believed that they had defeated the Sith over 1,000 years ago, so clearly keeping young Force sensitives from Sith hands had long since ceased to be an issue. Getting them young and keeping them from interacting with their families and the outside world was all about getting and maintaining control. In the Ahsoka tie-in novel, Ahsoka talks about how Plo Koon brought her to her true family at the Temple when he took her from her birth family. They were all raised to think that way so their primary loyalty would be to the Order.

Them letting her leave actually makes sense to me. They don't want to think of themselves as a cult. Restricting the liberty of people and forcing them to do things against their will is what cults and bad guys do. They want members who are utterly committed to the cause of their own free will (and indoctrination) not unwilling prisoners. So, they let her go, and then during the Utapau, Obi-Wan paints her decision to leave as a personal moral failing and selfishness.

From:

talkytina

If I may to barge in, I have some thoughts on this topic.
The moral ambiguity of the Order's recruiting brings to mind Robert King Merton's sociological theory of manifest and latent functionalism, in which he discusses and differentiates between intended effects of cultural behavior and its unintentional byproduct. There's a good chance that you've heard of it you've got a degree in humanities. Anyway, the most often given example is that of the Hopi tribe and their ritual dance: they dance to bring forth rain - the idea that together they can make it rain is the intended, manifest function of their ritual, but what's in fact far more important (though they didn't presumably fully realize it) is the that the common goal and the enjoyment bring the tribe together and strengthen bonds between its members - the unintended latent function.

Why I'm writing all this: I imagine that something similar is going on with the Jedi and their recruiting and childrearing practices. Yes, the great part of why they take children from their parents is control. But, I think they don't fully realize it. At least not in the way that it would give them a pause and ma ke them reconsider. It's latent. They don't see it as an attempt to manipulate/indoctrinate/isolate young Force-sensitive children. They would most likely be genuinely terrified and offended at the very idea that someone accuses them of such malevolent practices!

As for how they explain their child-taking ways? I think there are several points:
1, The Will of the Force: They're a religious group that apparently believes the Force is a semi-conscious godlike entity that has intentions and goals. Which means, if a child is born that potentially has the ability to interact with the Force, it means that their god wishes that the child should be taught to learn its ways. Why else would it be given the gift? It's the child's birthright to live in communion with the Force, to serve it, and Do Good in its name.

Actually, this is quite interesting in regards to Force-sensitives who were found "too late" or not at all such as Anakin or Maul. Do the Jedi believe it's the Order's failing that they were not able to find them in time? Or do they believe that the Force had different plans with these individuals or possibly that while Force-sensitive, they were otherwise defective in some other way? The former would imply that the Force has a grander plan beyond the Order's beliefs, the latter that the Force makes mistakes.

2, Protection: The Sith may be no more (as far as the Jedi are aware), but minor Darkside-leaning groups remain. The case in point are the Nightsisters/Nighbrothers. We don't see them kidnap any children, but if an opportunity presented itself or a human trafficant came with a good offer... Which leads to other groups that may have nefarious intentions towards Force sensitive children. As a baby, Ahsoka had been almost kidnapped by slavers posing as Jedi, years later it nearly happened again at the hands of Hondo Ohnaka. It's quite possible that their younglings are locked away in the créche not only in effort to isolate them, but to protect them from being carried away by people who view them as precious commodity.

Another thing: they do not quite have the inherent trust in a family's ability or desire to protect a Force sensitive child.
Due to their upbringing, Jedi's normal is very different from our normal. Having parents is alien to them. No one in the Order has known their mother or father, but they are fine anyway. So way should they be horrified at the idea of a child growing up without parents? As for the parents, they should selflessly overcome their feelings and be happy for their child.

Second point, not all families are happy and functional. Jedi must be aware of it due to the nature of their occupation. If the GFFA is _anything_ like our world, we can be reasonably sure that on planets with hereditary rulers there are inheritance wars, you can find people who kill their relatives to inherit their wealth, child abuse within families is more common than anyone would like to admit, some parents treat their children merely as useful commodity that can be sold or killed if deemed unprofitable (let's just think of all the cultures that consider girls lesser, in which many parents sell them as child brides, or abandon or kill them upon birth like in China during the era of one child policy). Et cetera, et cetera.

Long story short, given that the Jedi don't tend to get close with other people and don't really care about other people's personal lives unless there's some sort of conflict or criminal activity, it's likely they get to see more of the negative side of family life than the positives. Consenquently, they may belive that family as an institution is overrated and view other people putting it on pedestal as irrational.

Wow, this got insanely long. I apologize!

From:

redrikki

Those are all really good and interesting points and I'm sure the Jedi use it to justify their behavior, both to themselves and to others.

The too-old Force sensitives thing is a thorny issue. In the Ahsoka novel, she meets a girl who is an untrained Force sensitive and is like, damn, that's a waste. In the Clone Wars, it turns out that there are other Force-based religions and the two groups have clashed historically because the Jedi Order keeps trying to take their kids without the permission of the planet's religious authority. Do the Jedi look down their noses at the people in that religious tradition and see their practices as a waste of Force-given talent? In the show, it kind of seems like they might. They dismiss their Bardottan's complaints about Jedi recruitment and then casually violate their planets' ban on visiting Jedi because of course they know better. Man, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but Jedi clearly seem to think they have a right to Force sensitive children, whatever their justifications.

From:

talkytina

To be honest, in these discussions about Jedi recruitment I'm always nonplussed that people usually talk of parents' giving their consent, but not about _the child's_ consent. It's the child, whose life will be affected the most, but gets no choice either way. It doesn't seem people realize that?

Then I thought about it some more and I had the epiphany that society is used to children having no true choice in what faith they follow. Children are always "indoctrinated" by their caretakers and there's no way to avoid it. Even I was! My parents were atheist and religion was a non issue in our houseld (or my homecountry, for that matter), so I am atheist as well without ever thinking too hard about it.

Not that all that many people want their children to make a choice of their own. Christians have got christening infants, jews and muslims have got male circumcision, other religions have probably got similar rituals. I believe there are some denominations that wait until the person in question has mind of their own, but most don't. (To be fair once again, that can be true of atheists as well. I have recently learnt that when I was 5 or so, my paternal grandma tried to teach me a prayer and my mom was pissed that she was filling my head with nonsense.)

The thing about Jedi is that due to their non-attachment teachings, they can't really have children of their own. So they've got to be forcibly convertitive and find some other Force sensitive children, to whom they can pass down their way of life.

What makes it even more interesting, the government evidently supports them in that (until Palpatine appears on the scene, that is). Here comes the broader issue of who knows what's best for the child - family or state? I believe it's the family, but in Europe in the last few years we've had somewhat of an upheavel with the death of Alfie Evans and also with Bavernet. Oh man, I hope none of those accusations are true. *sigh*

To end this on a somewhat lighter note, are you familiar with metal songs by Dooku's actor? They're total cheese, but kind of great? One of them is called The Bloody Verdict of Verden and it's sung by Lee as Charlemagne about his slaughter of Saxon heathens for their "worship of devils". Which is sort of relevant to our topic, but mostly I can actually imagine Dooku singing it both as a Jedi or a Sith lol.

From:

redrikki

I think I vaguely knew that Christopher Lee was in a metal band, but I have not heard his stuff. It sounds nuts.

About the recruitment, it is so complicated. You're right about kids being raised with religion, but the Jedi aren't just a religion. They're a profession, a whole closed society of unpaid space cops and diplomats. Their parents aren't just signing them up for baptism or Hebrew school, they're signing them up for a lifetime of dangerous, unpaid service to the state. And of course the state encourages them to do so. Force sensitive are a valuable strategic resource and, as long as the Jedi are nominally under the control of the Senate, it makes complete sense that the state wants as many Jedi as it can get.

From:

talkytina

I'm sorry for a kind of late answer, but first I've been mulling it over if I have anything of substance to add. Then the board ate my post and I had to take time to deflate, because I'm no Jedi and get angry over stupid things lol.

Essentially I agree with you that Jediing is more than religion, it's an entire way of life that's quite limiting as far as a chance at personal happiness goes (though to be fair, religion can also severely limit a person's liberty depending on a specific interpretation... hello there, Saudi women!).

When it comes to the Republic's/Senate's stance on the Jedi, I guess we've got to keep in mind safety concerns. I must confess that I don't know what the current canon take on the Order's genesis is - is the Ruusaan reformation even still canon? Considering that the Sith were not just "any" darkside users, but an offshoot of the Jedi, I imagine the public of that era might have felt that having the Jedi around is useful, but not quite safe. Consequently the Senate would have put the Order under (a closer) supervision and asked to put in place preventive measures to stop such a problem from arising again.

Also, the Jedi need the Republic as much as the Republic needs them - if not more so. If necessary, the Senate would be likely able to find other enforcers, diplomats, and healers, but the Jedi can't go full vigilante and step on toes of planetary leaders and megacorps without a mandate from a legitimate authority. Not to mention, who else would be able to shoulder the cost of living of an organization whose members count thousands, yikes! Unsurprisingly, it ultimately led to the Jedi putting their mouth where their money is.

OTOH I'm not sure how the Order could have operated before raising their adepts since infancy. I mean, there are thousands of inhabited planets in the GFFA with thousands of sentient species and even more cultures and religions. Seat together around one table a prototypical American, a Brit, an Irishman, a Frenchman, a German, a Pole, a Russian, a Serbian, a Bosnian, an Israeli, an Iranian, an Iraqi, a Kurd, a Turk, a Saudi,etc. etc. and ask them to forget all their prejudices and differences, accept a new faith, and make them work together. Personally I don't see it happening.

Either the Jedi of the Old Republic accepted members mostly from tolerant, liberal worlds, but proved pickier with possible candidates from planets known for religious intolerance, xenophobia and speciesism... or I don't know.

From:

redrikki

I really wish Disney would clarify what is still canon.

I'm thinking about what you said about the Order and it's relationship with the Republic. I think you're right about how much the government relies on them for funding, but I question you assumption that they'd even want to be out there as a vigilante force if that wasn't their literal job. The Republic funds them because they provide this service, but otherwise they're basically a monastic order. The Jedi without their relationship with the Republic would probably be like monks, or, possibly like knights Templar. The Templars were an order of armed monks who helped fight the crusades and guarded pilgrims to the holy land. I can easily see the Jedi providing a similar function and living off the payment for their services.

As to recruiting adults, I don't think it would be as hard as you imagine. After all, the knights Templar came from all over Europe to serve. The Templars made it worth their while. They gave non-inheriting noblemen an opportunity to gain wealth and power. They provided commoners a chance to get out, get an education, and see the world. The Jedi could easily do the same. Recruiting kids was easier because they didn't have to break them down first before they molded them into what they wanted.

From:

talkytina

They haven't decided themselves yet, I guess.

Well, I don't know... Like 90 % of my knowledge of Knights Templar comes from Maurice Druon's The Accursed Kings series, which - while a great fun! - is not exactly educative, and the Templars stuck around only long enough to curse the Capetians and go down in flames. Googling them know, apparently their main jam aside of fighting had been... banking. Color me surprised.
I can see some similarities with the Jedi, but I'm not sure if there's a place for them in the GFFA. I mean, the only thing the Jedi could protect in a manner similar to the Templars are the kyber crystals, which is something what the Guardians of the Whills already do, but without much glamour, and I can't for the life of me imagine them as businessmen.

My own impression of the Jedi is that that they are a bit too... aggressive? in their symbolism (I can't find a better word for it) to be just monks. I remember reading a meta that highlighted the symbolism of lightsabers - image-wise they are de facto the perfect weapon - a sword made of fire - fire has the connotation of cleansing and punishing, the sword speaks for itself. Considering what emphasis they put on their lightsaber, I just don't think their main purpose had ever been to meditate and ignore the outer world.

Anyway, I'm not generally well-informed about the new canon, but I flicked through the companion picture book for Rogue One, and what surprised me is that apparently due to its name many people in the GFFA belive that Jedha is the place of origin of the Jedi, which is frankly surprising, since the movie makes it clear that it were the Guardians that made it their home. The Jedi don't seem to have done more than pay it an occasional visit in order to harvest crystals and build around those statues much like on Ilum. I thought that it was strange that in such a large galaxy, two of the very few known Force religions would have originated on the same planet - if only for the reason that it wouldn't be very original on the creators' part.

So, I've been thinking that either the Jedi - Jedha connection was a misdirection, or the Guardians and the Jedi have common origins. My pet theory is that the Jedi started as the offshoot of the Guardians akin to how Christianity split from Judaism, and quickly gained numbers and became the dominant religion. I'm thinking that a long time a group of Force sensitive Guardians felt that what they were doing with protecting the crystals and the locals wasn't enough anymore (they had a vision, perhaps?) and decided to play a more active role in the larger world. So, they took some of those crystals and went to Do Good in the name of the Force and convert more Force sensitives to their ideals. If the GFFA was more of a Wild West back then, they could have well been a vigilante group.
But times changed and they were forced to change as well.

I recognize that the GFFA could be much mellower about things like racism and religious intolerance, but I don't think that the Templars are a good comparison, since they were all catholics. Sure, there were differences among them, but they were all raised with the same basic ideology. But it is true that one of the major reasons as to why crusades came into being was that the Catholic Church wanted to give the Christendom a common foe, so they would stop fighting among themselves.

From:

redrikki

Obviously it's not a one-to-one thing with the Templars, but I can easily see the Jedi before they bound themselves to the Republic acting as a sort of mercenary fighting force for those individuals/political movements they convince themselves are righteous. I mean, that's sort of what they do already on behalf of the Republic, so it's not that much of a stretch. Either that, or they would control a specific swatch of territory with the Jedi ruling over the commoners by divine right of their Force gifts and occasionally throwing down with their neighbors or rival religious groups. Obviously, the Jedi Order without their ties to the Republic would be a very different beast.

Still, if the Jedi did have those ties to the Republic, I think it would actually make it easier to recruit adults. I mean, the US military has little trouble attracting recruits with the double allure of patriotism and tangible financial benefits.

From:

talkytina

What you describe sounds exactly how I imagine the beginnings of the Sith. A group of Jedi that thought they know best and therefore they are entitled to rule. From there on it became a slippery slope leading to the attempts at world domination.

The prequel Jedi had seemingly forsaken all political power. On the political scene they function merely as mediators and advisors. It's up in the air if that how have always been or if they had gone for the other extreme in reaction to the Sith.

I am of two minds about at what point they started preferring children over adults. You are certainly right that recruiting adults would have been easier, since they wouldn't have to take part in raising them and deal with their parents and regulations about child protection and so on. OTOH the attractiveness of being a Jedi for someone not raised as one depends on the palatability of their philosophy and rules - could they own things? How about getting married?

I think that by necessity they would have taken only adult members in their beginnings. The only children they taught would have been their own kids, nephews, nieces, orphans they took in etc. I mean, who would have sent them their kid for training anyway? It might make sense for the inhabitants of Jedha to send some of their children to the Guardians of the Whills since they are familiar with their ways. OTOH Force sensitive children are born all over the galaxy and their parents have most likely never even heard of the Jedi.

So I think that only after they became a stable, respectable institution, they would have been able to start some sort of a prep school with the government's backing. That prep school would have ultimately evolved into what we see in the prequels.

From:

dragoness_e

. Anyway, the most often given example is that of the Hopi tribe and their ritual dance: they dance to bring forth rain - the idea that together they can make it rain is the intended, manifest function of their ritual, but what's in fact far more important (though they didn't presumably fully realize it) is the that the common goal and the enjoyment bring the tribe together and strengthen bonds between its members - the unintended latent function.

(Emphasis mine). I'm going to nitpick a side issue here, but that's a classic example of Western privilege and myopia: assuming that "primitive" people don't know perfectly well that what they are doing has an important social function.

From:

redrikki

Good point.

From:

thisweekmod

Hello! May I link this post over at

thisweekmeta, a pan-fandom meta newsletter?

From:

redrikki

Sure. Please go for it! I never object to more eyes on my posts.

From:

gettinggreyer

I definitely agree that the Jedi Order has a lot of cult-like tendencies (especially during the prequel and kotor era). The Jedi have always come across to me as a group with good intentions, but that over time the group lost their way and gave into their fear of the Sith, hypocrisy, and corruption and forgot their true ideology.

I feel slightly uncomfortable defining them as completely cultish, because whenever you apply real-world terminology to a fantastical and exaggerated fictitious world I feel like you kind of lose sight of the original point of the universe. But the Jedi Order definitely fit the points of a cult in numerous ways and I do think, that at least in part, that was intended by George Lucas.

From:

redrikki

You've got a good point about the problem of using real-world concepts like 'cult' when talking about the Jedi. In our world, a cult generally has a pejorative feel to it. We see them as something dangerous and outside the mainstream, but the Jedi Order within the GFFA was a powerful institution, one which, while few every day citizens interacted with it, was widely respected and whose members were welcomed into the halls of power. Clearly, they didn't see themselves as a cult and would have probably been deeply insulted by the idea, and yet, they exhibit all the classic hallmarks of one.

I very much think the Jedi Order in the PT and Clone Wars cartoons was meant to be an object lesson about what happens when well-intentioned religious groups become more focused on retaining their power than living by their ideals. After all, the manner by which good people and institutions fall to corruption is literally the point of the trilogy.

From:

gettinggreyer

I remember a conversation I had a long time ago with a friend and they compared the Jedi Order to their religious church. I am not personally religious, nor was I raised in a particularly religious household, so I don't feel completely comfortable talking about the Jedi Order from a religious perspective. But you saying that the Jedi were "mainstream" and generally accepted by the general public reminds me about how a lot of religious institutions and churches are rampant with abuses and controls of power, but due to how normalized they are and how much power they hold they are not seen as negatively as cults are by society.

And I completely agree with you about how the Jedi Order is meant to be seen as an object lesson. That particular theme is one of my favorite parts of the prequels and I really liked how they carried it over and expanded on it in the clone wars cartoon.

From:

gingicat

“I very much think the Jedi Order in the PT and Clone Wars cartoons was meant to be an object lesson about what happens when well-intentioned religious groups become more focused on retaining their power than living by their ideals. After all, the manner by which good people and institutions fall to corruption is literally the point of the trilogy.”

Yes, this.

From:

ljwrites

It's no wonder that the elder Hux explicitly modeled the FO's Stormtrooper program on the Jedi. They took all of the control tactics and none of the good intentions/functions of the Jedi to create the ultimate mind control cult.

From:

redrikki

I know, right? I've actually got an old meta about just how similar the Jedi Order and the First Order were in their 'parenting' techniques that I'll get around to throwing up here at some point.

From:

ayebydan

Wonderful read. (I came via the fandom meta comm)

I agree. The Jedi are absolutely a cult and I think that is why so many are seduced to the dark side. It is not just about power but freedom. Rules are fine. Rules are needed. The Sith have rules. But the complete control of every aspect of a being's life is cult-like and pretty horrendous.

From:

redrikki

That's an interesting point about how the Jedi Order's excessive control over their members leading to said members going Dark Side. I certainly think Anakin's decision to marry Padme was at least partially about his desire to reassert a certain degree of control over his life. This might also be a good time to talk about Barriss. By her own admission, she committed an act of terrorism because she felt the Jedi were headed in the wrong direction and she had no other way to make the Council listen.

The problem is, outside of Anakin, Barriss, Krell, and the Inquisitor, we really don't see a lot of Jedi Falling. Although, on the other hand, the existence of the Citadel, a large prison meant for containing Fallen Jedi would certainly indicate that it was an issue. I really wish canon had given us more Fallen Jedi and done more to explain their trajectory.

From:

ayebydan

We do see other fallen Jedi though and get a sense of why they fell. Duku is pretty open about his feelings on what he felt went wrong outside of wanting more power. People tend to push that aside and just react in horror that he was under Palpatine for a time but his reasoning was sound to a logical person. The Jedi were corrupt. They were hypocrites. Ectect.

Perhaps it is because we are conditioned by the canon we are given to think all fall in the way of Anakin and Barriss ect in that they will fall quickly. When perhaps the reality is that more break away slow, jaded and the Jedi see them as walking away and not so much as a threat. The fewer sith there are the fewer there are to tempt Jedi but in times gone by...in the hayday well then it would have been war with people switching side all the time and the need for later jails I'd expect.

From:

second_evtales

TBH I always saw the Jedi as the Jannissaries.
Also recruited young, also taken away and not supposed to marry or have any other attachment than to their corps and to the Sublime Porte. Some parents saw it as an opportunity for social advancement, some others did everything that was in their power to prevent the "tribute" from being collected.

In addition, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I 100% think that the Jedi Order is a cult that has a lot of potential for emotional and religious abuse (it happens in canon) and that is functional to the maintenance of the Status Quo in the Galactic Republic in economic and social terms.
Any comparisons with Christian religious authorities is pretty much spot on IMHO.

From:

redrikki

I didn't know much about the Jannissaries although some quick Wikipedia tells me you may be on to something.

I 100% agree that the Jedi way of life is rife with the potential for abuse. I'm fact, we see this potential realized. Anakin is emotionally abused by Obi-Wan throughout AotC. The Council handed him over to Palpatine, an adult who groomed him for further abuse, in order to curry political favor. They sent teenagers to war and left them to die when they were kidnapped. We don't see kids being beaten or sexually molested, but we also don't see a mechanism for any potential victims for reporting of they were.

From:

second_evtales

TBH Obi-Wan was badly abused emotionally when he was a kid/teenager, according to EU sources.
This does not justify his behaviour, but explains it as a normalisation and re-enacting of what he went through.

The Jedi Order is a self-righteous, hypocritical hellhole.

From:

redrikki

I haven't read the old Eu, but I won't disagree that the Jedi seemed to have normalized emotionally abusive behavior by both teachers and students. Good times.